For those that have had access or never read my post inside the Fellowship member’s forum, I previously speculated that the collection of dew was a reference to the possibility that the author once witnessed the collection of dew in an arid region such as the Western Mediterranean. And thus its reference in the Tempest was meant to reflect this.

The original argument was in pointing out one of my personal reasons for believing in an early origination for the Tempest. That argument aside, I thought that it was worth pointing out that, the nature of dew is such that its collection is generally a very purposeful practice even beyond other means.

I.e. unlike other forms of fresh water that humans might use, such as wells, rain water catchments, rivers, lakes, where in some instances human activity might once have been necessary its collection is simple enough to achieve without much if any forethought.

In contrast, however dew (which is hopefully clear is not the same as rain though both stem from condensation) is a much more active process and as such, in my mind at least a reference to acquiring dew thus would very likely be to a means of its collection or to the people that did the collecting.

Now with respect to the Tempest a play that clearly has its main action-taking place in the Mediterranean. The question in my mind as well, is why would our beloved playwright have our little spirit Ariel travel thousands of hypothetical miles to acquire "dew" from another island of all places?

So given these two thoughts does any sentient being out there not wedded to the notion that this little reference to dew is a priori a reference to the "new world" have any thoughts as to the Bermoothes from which this dew in question derives, might not actually be a reference to something else?

Possibly, Inhabitants of the island’s near neighbors for example. I offered in other post on this site (also in the member’s section) the potential that what Shakespeare actually had in mind is a contraction of Berber and Moor, which strangely corresponds, well with the region of the plays action.

Or is this logic just too hard to follow? While the question might seem trivial the implication of questioning simple assumptions like this have I believe very large implications for rethinking Shakespeare in very important ways as I’ve indicated in questioning its origination date.

Well, there are those of us who, in spite of the penetrating studies of Mouse and Bass, still find more than adequate reason to locate at least one of the "Tempest" sources in the western hemisphere. Notwithstanding the need for a classical (Mediterranean) venue - to ratify Oxford's need for a magus to personify his own mortality - the many connections between himself and Gosnold (www.humilitypress.org/Prospero's Hen) intersect with material also usurped by Strachey, who was with Gosnold at one point in Jamestown. But as for differentiating his locus from Bermuda, Oxford clearly describes a temperate environment impossible for other shipwrecks (about which in any event, Tempest is not).

By making Strachey impossible, our side has left "Tempest" free to become the yarn suggested by Jan Kott in his "Shakespeare Our Contemporary". "Shake-speare's" unique capacity to work in a basket of other delights, may even have suggested (in his spelling) the additional reference to the stews of London.

Joe

Joe,

The topic and the question relate to the specific reference of Bermoothes to the Bermudas in the context of its usage within the play.

I am sincerely hoping people might be able to both respond to and if possible limit themselves to this particular topic. And if not the latter at least make some effort toward the former.

The issue again is not whether there are sources that relate to the western hemisphere. That is another question entirely though it clearly bears some relation to this topic. Thus "penetrating studies" aside, the question relates to the logic of using the word dew.

I think a dew-lap on a bull has nothing to do with dew, but looks rather like hanging fleshy jowls.

and Hamlet!

Oh, that this too too solid flesh would melt, thaw and resolve itself into a dew....
or that the everlasting had not fixed his canon 'gainst self-slaughter...

(I'm quoting from memory ...)

Thank you Marie for your approach. Would that I had seen the way. And, what did it tell us (or at least me)? That dew is mostly stuff for tenderness (both M & F) and for fairies, who are oft appointed with its procurement or transport. Prospero's fairy is not one of mid-summer, but more an adjunct to a deus ex machina. His fetch lacks tinkle and the capacity to survive the rough winds of the several required parallels. To the extent that Ariel's burden differs from Marie's glistening tiara, Ataricia's quest may help us out. What was the stuff for? Why was it needed just then in the plot? What would it be doing in the vicinity of Mt. Oxford? Might it be habit-forming? Joe

"Now with respect to the Tempest a play that clearly has its main action-taking place in the Mediterranean. The question in my mind as well, is why would our beloved playwright have our little spirit Ariel travel thousands of hypothetical miles to acquire "dew" from another island of all places?"

Perhaps because 'dew' is the symbolic representation of the transformation of the human to the 'other world', the celestial divine....

Marie,

On the contrary, I believe merely by asking the question of how Shakespeare used "dew" in other instances you have come closer to addressing my question.

I personally think Shakespeare was very precise in his usage of dew. And though invariably many of his other usages of dew are metaphorical in nature and as you point out more poetic, they are meant very clearly to convey the notion of droplets condensed in nature or moisture that appears in small drops.

And while we may not necessarily agree on the conclusion, we can draw from this. The conclusion I draw is that dew was not a mere synonym for water. Further, I think embodied in the phrase "cup of dew" is the notion of the scarcity of it. Thus had Shakespeare meant to suggest Ariel merely go fetch water he much more likely would have stated it more simply without either the use of dew or the quantity in question. And likely had Prospero had more options would have been more apt to change his request to cool water for example.

Though perhaps another conclusion you could draw as you appear to is that this usage is not typical enough of Shakespeare and thus perhaps he did not even write it. That he would not have even have used it in a literal sense as I’m suggesting. And I don’t know how one really determines Shakespeare’s earliest works or the latter half as you seem to suggest the Tempest should fall in. But I think there are many reasons to see the Tempest is actually one of earliest if not the earliest.

I also happen to think that there is great symbolic meaning to Shakespeare in a Tempest that only has the appearance of calamity but by virtue of greater power can be safely circumvented. But that is for perhaps for another time and likely a different forum.

Mouse,

So you think that the audience is far more apt to understand and what I can only see as an obscure reference to Eden and find this would have been more satisfactory to them? Do you think general audiences would have understood all of Shakespeare’s coined words?

I might suggest that Bermoothes in this possible context is yet another reason to speculate that the Tempest was written for private audiences. One of many others I tried within the membership forum to illustrate. And that it is not hard for me to imagine that they might be both informed enough of the context and clever enough to figure out its meaning.

While you may not agree with my solution, what I was illustrating why I personally find it more logical than yours. In fact, I did not claim that it even was the solution. I was offering it as a sample conjecture that might answer why dew and Bermoothes might have any reasonable connection within this play. And have any personal connect to its author.

And as you point out while dew might be a play on alcohol I think this is likely not its primary purpose. And while member EEG pointed out that Shakespeare possessed "richly-condensed, pleasing and beautiful and layered language", I think we might have a reasonable expectation of a sensible primary meaning before we speculate on secondary ones.

But more importantly it is the reason why find my solution to be much more "Shakespearean". Because it does convey a richly condensed insight into life on other lands that provides flavor and context for the play.

But I think this illustrates a difference in the general approach Oxfordians seem to take to the authorship debate. That is merely making Shakespeare appear slightly less inconsistently brilliant and providing only a slightly more autobiographical connection. And while I do see utility in this approach particularly for removing the obstacle of scholars to even consider that the Tempest could have been written early enough for Oxford. I think the approach in general offers little appeal toward overcoming the real obstacles in providing Oxford as a much more compelling author.

Thanks for helping me to illustrate this larger point to the post.

Hi Marie,

In context, I think "dew-lapped" is one of Shakespeare's great ambiguities and probably referred the dew on the bulls' jowls as well as to their anatomy.

Dewlap in the OED:

1. a. The fold of loose skin which hangs from the throat of cattle.

Hello Alan,

The phrase “cup of dew” isn’t in The Tempest, so we really don’t know how much Ariel was sent to fetch. And the author doesn’t let on what the dew was for, either – we only infer that it must have been to drink. After all, Prospero doesn’t seem the type to be painting roses with shimmering pearls. But then again, he doesn’t seem given to indulgence in distilled spirits, either!

Unlike Ariel's "dew", none of Shakespeare’s uses of the word strongly suggest a cup of something to drink.



The author of The Tempest does seem to have a unique approach to the word, surrounding it with different connotations and image clusters. Here are the two uses in the play:

Ariel:
Safely in harbour
Is the king’s ship; in the deep nook, where once
Thou call’dst me up at midnight to fetch dew
From the still-vex’d Bermoothes, there she’s hid:

Caliban:
As wicked dew as e’er my mother brush’d
With raven’s feather from unwholesome few
Drop on you both! A south-west blow on ye
And blister you all o’er!

Caliban turns Shakespeare’s precious substance into something wicked. Ariel hints that his stern master enjoys distilled spirits and paints Prospero as the sort of master who sends his servants out at midnight to indulge his desires. No tears or roses, pearls or sighing beauty. These are anti-Shakespearean usages.



I do see what you mean about “dew” as a drink suggesting scarcity of water, therefore a hot, dry island. Do you find other hot, dry, thirsty references in the play? It seems a fertile place to Gonzalo, good for sowing of plantations. And when the hellhounds chase Caliban and his new friends, seems like they scramble through stinking, wet bogs.




Dating any Elizabethan play is bound to be problematic. Publication or performance dates can be deceiving, since the author may have circulated the work in manuscript, or had it in his drawer for years before coming back to it.

But the considered opinion of scholars over the centuries seems to be that plays like Comedy of Errors and Titus Andronicus are among the earliest of Shakespeare’s works. Are you thinking that The Tempest predates these? If so, why?

Marie

Mouse,

I do not think there is anything wrong with disagreeing. But I think it is important to illustrate how. So I thank you for your response. I hope we can agree this should be one of the main reasons for these boards, if not the very most important reason.

Perhaps Prospero needed the dew for one of his spells. That seems to me the most obvious meaning. Caliban certainly appears to be using the "wicked dew" to cast an evil spell on or curse the others.

Dew-lapp'd like Thessalonian balls. Good breeding hounds.




No etymology?


SHAKESPEARE'S MND:

Theseus:
My hounds are bred out of the Spartan kind,
So flew’d, so sanded, and their heads are hung
With ears that sweep away the morning dew;
Crook-knee’d, and dew-lapp’d like Thessalian bulls;
Slow in pursuit, but match’d in the mouth like bells…

"DEWLAPP'D" IN THE TEMPEST

Gonzalo:
Faith, sir, you need not fear. When we were boys,
Who would believe that there were mountaineers
Dew-lapp’d like bulls, whose throats had hanging at ‘em
Wallets of flesh? Or that there were such men
Whose heads stood in their breast?

Less ambiguity (i.e. no balls) in the second, it seems...

Marie M.

Marie: Caliban turns Shakespeare’s precious substance into something wicked. Ariel hints that his stern master enjoys distilled spirits and paints Prospero as the sort of master who sends his servants out at midnight to indulge his desires.

***I think he sends Ariel out at midnight because it's the witching hour, when spells are cast.


No tears or roses, pearls or sighing beauty. These are anti-Shakespearean usages.

***Are you saying the author wasn't Shakespeare (= Oxford) ? I can't agree, especially as the themes occur in so many of his other plays, but could you give me your reasons for thinking Tempest is not his? Perhaps you could start another thread on it, so as not to go off topic.

Marie,

Thank you very much for correcting me. I’m not sure where I got the cup from other than the vagaries of an imperfect memory and being a little tired.

So yes, we do not know how much Ariel was meant to fetch. And yes as you say The Tempest does have something of a unique approach to the word. Though I don’t believe the word is that mysterious. As I tried to make clear from my post, it is I believe what dew typically is condensation.

And it seems to create many possibilities for metaphor for Shakespeare. And as you pointed out in Caliban's quote, something wicked potentially. But it is my thought at least, that this dew is a much more metaphorical reference and meant to reflect pervasiveness as dew is want to do when it does appear naturally. And that "wicked dew" is death in this case, at least it is my thought. Of course, that goes to what I think is the deeper meaning of this play and the fact that Caliban’s mother Sycorax, likely represents Queen Mary I.

And yes, I do think there is a good possibility that The Tempest predates Comedy of Errors and Titus Andronicus. But I don’t think the exact order is so important. Though it is something I personally think might reflect larger psychological clues as to the feeling of Shakespeare at the time of each composition.
At any rate you asked for the reasons so let me list a few.

I suspect John Dee was likely the inspiration for Prospero a much more contemporary reference along with Mary I. And as I have discussed previously are the usage of the masque and the influence of Commedia dell'arte. Both of which I suspect were influences Oxford had recently picked up from Italy. Along with my general feeling that, the romances were likely the works of a young Oxford for a host of reasons that I personally have.

I’d never thought of that. Then the inference should relate to Prospero’s “spells” in the first act. But Prospero never mentions any ingredients, or spells. We never see him concocting a witch’s brew. He tells Miranda to “pluck my magic garment from me.” When he takes off his cloak, he puts aside his “Art.” And when he wants to work more magic, he calls up Ariel. Ariel does the magic. But Ariel doesn’t concoct brews either.



We don’t see him collecting dew or other ingredients for a brew, however. He’s just cursing, answering Prospero’s rude summons in kind, as if to say:

“The S.O.B. just called me “a poisonous slave, got by the devil himself.” He wants the devil, I’ll give him the devil!”

Of course, he wouldn’t know how to curse if someone hadn’t shown him how, as he tells Miranda: “You taught me language, and my profit on’t/Is I know how to curse…”

Marie M.

How about the Geographical approach? Or, to keep it theatrically simple, Dew is the product of temperature and humidity. Tempest has its geographical moments, although (I believe) primarily metaphorical, as are any references to the classics and other shards of the past. Can anyone drum up an environmental aspect to help us out? Joe

Just give Kott his due, he sees not Dr. Dee, but a Gallileo or Leonardo surveying his life and work. Certainly having been cast adrift with a daughter would not be difficult for one who had three of them, and, mirabile dictu, three sons. At the end of his life he brings his Characters to an island that is appropriately mythical, putting kings, princes, villains, heroes, monsters, lovers, etc. through their paces. To the extent that we, his audience, have little trouble identifying with (or against) them, this becomes Metaphor City. Then, when his work is done (the broken wand is actually a pen) he sails away deftly swallowed in a classico-mythico (wedding) culture leaving who? behind. Jan Kott says it is Us, his eternal audience - and daft is (s)he that holds this atypical - as two entities: our spirit (Ariel) and our -the restofus - (Caliban) who he has promise to seek grace. What author (ever) could ask more? Not me. Joe

Joe,

I see both Dr. Dee and Leonardo in Prospero. Dee because Oxford seems to have known him and he was around the court, and Leonardo because he was in the service of the Duke of Milan, Ludovico Sforza, whose somewhat clashing characteristics (both a patron of the arts and a usurper of the rightful duke), might have been the models for Prospero and/or his brother Antonio.

While you've been talking about Eden, Marty--thank you--I went and unpacked my copy, and realised I'd made a mistake. It was Oviedo, and not Pigafetta, who spoke of Bermuda as "the furthest of all the islands that are found at this day in the world." This is why we believe that Prospero sent Ariel there, and this is what we believe Slitgut is riffing on in Eastward Ho when he says: "Now will I descend my honorable prospect, the farthest-seeing sea-mark of the world..."

Apologies. Brain out of gear, as usual.